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ATRIUM CARCERI
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ANTLERS MULM
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SKYFORGER
FIRST LAW
: WUMPSCUT :
CAWATANA
ASSEMBLAGE 23
ACTUS
DER BLUTHARSCH
LAHKA MUZA
GAЁ BOLG
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CHANGES :: Nicholas Tesluk
CHANGES :: Robert N. Taylor

Issue 4:

A CHALLENGE OF HONOUR
BRIGHTER DEATH NOW
CONVERTER
DARK SANCTUARY
DIES NATALIS
FROZEN AUTUMN
IN GOWAN RING
IRM
KARNNOS
LUSTMORD
ORPLID
PREDELLA AVANT
SPIRITUAL FRONT

Archive:

AIN SOPH
ALLERSEELEN
ALLGRENA
APOPTOSE
ATARAXIA
AUTUNM TEARS
BAD SECTOR
BELBORN
CANAAN
COLD SPRING
COPH NIA
CORONA BOREALIS /HAGALAZ' RUNEDANCE/
DARKWOOD
DESIDERII MARGINIS
DEUTSCH NEPAL
EGOAEDES
ERNTE /CTHULHU RECORDS/
HAGALAZ' RUNEDANCE
HEKATE
INSTITUT
INSTITUT /add-on/
IRON JUSTICE
KIRLIAN CAMERA
LEUTHA
MEMBRIUM DEBILE PROPAGANDA
MILITIA
MOLJEBKA PVLSE
MORTIIS 1
MORTIIS 2
NOVY SVET
OCTINOMOS /Fredrik Soderlund/
OLD EUROPA CAFE
OPERA MULTI STEEL
O PARADIS
ORDO EQUILIBRIO
OSTARA
PENITENT
POLYGON
PROPERGOL
PUISSANCE 1
PUISSANCE 2
PROSCRIPTOR
RAISON D'ETRE
RED HARVEST
STALINGRAD
T.A.C.
THE BERZERKER
THE DAYS OF THE TRUMPET CALL
THE MOON LAY HIDDEN BENEATH A CLOUD
...THE SOIL BLEEDS BLACK
TESCO
TRERIKSROSET
UMBRA
VELES
VON THRONSTAHL / FORTHCOMING FIRE
WHILE HEAVEN WEPT
WHITEHOUSE
WIERZBA /Fluttering Dragon Records/

CHANGES :: Robert N. Taylor



You have started CHANGES back in 1969. We, young people, imagine late 60s as some sort of happy time, drugs, LSD and hippies. Such an image was created by media and today even Charlie Manson doesn't look very bad, I'd say he looks extravagant. As far as I know the reality was pretty ugly. Back then people were even shot by police during riots. I recall, JDL has started it's terror activities in late 60s as well. Europe was in flame of student's revolution, SPK, RAF.... and so on. Could you tell us about that time as a witness? How do you look at those days today? What do you think about hippies and LSD trend? Did French events of '68 influenced life in the States on the same time some how?

The often-used term "Hippies" is an unfortunate one. No one I know has ever quite defined that one for me. Who exactly constituted "Hippiedom"? Those who grew long hair, went barefooted and used psychedelics? Would that include left-wing revolutionaries? Those into occultism and witchcraft? Those who made marginal livings off the sale of hand crafted goods? Pacifists and antiwar activists? Some of them? All of them or more than these?

In a sense all of those that I mentioned, and probably others as well, would have fit into that general term in most people's minds. But there is a large margin of difference between someone sitting around a commune ingesting LSD and someone out bombing government buildings. Perhaps "Youth-Culture" or "counterculture" would be a better term and have a far wider application and be more inclusive.

As for "happy days" certainly there were some for many. Like all eras or epochs, there is good and there is bad, happy and sad, and all shadings in between (just as presently exists as I write this). If the sixties took on a feeling for many of "happy days" it was in its radical contrast with the fifties. It was a real relief, in many ways, from the fifties, which were very drab. The fifties being a time of artificial music. It was the dawn of stainless steel and formica, consumer goods with a pre-planned obsolescence, and shoddily manufactured goods. It was a world of hollow men in their three-piece button down suits, "I like IKE" and the cold-war, bad social-realism in the movies, blind, superficial and jingoistic patriotism. So, the sixties were a reaction and a relief from the humdrum fifties: A plastic world served up in twelve decorator colors.

As for LSD and other psychedelics, they were probably one of the things that had a lasting and far ranging effect on America and the Western world in general. Psychedelics are a very potent substance. I would go so far as to say that the discovery of LSD by Albert Hoffman was nearly as a great a discovery as nuclear power and the splitting of the atom. In both cases, the sheer potential for good or bad use is present.

Two of the best personal accounts I have read of the psychedelic era is Be Not Content: A Subterranean Journal by William Craddock and Ringolevio: A Game Played For Keeps by Emmett Grogan (Founder of the San Francisco Diggers). Both of these books I feel capture something of what was going on both internally as well as in the social sphere of those times.

Speaking personally, I gained a great deal, in a creative sense, from acid and other psychedelics in the past. Such substances give one an alternate way of conceiving and seeing things. That is not to say that such substances in and of themselves made people creative. Something had to already have been there innately. Those who were simply fools or idiots simply became bigger fools and idiots. For those like myself who already had an interest in spiritual and philosophical matters, it was an impetus. Those who I associated with at the time spoke in terms of figuring out "the question". The question was just another way of saying the quest--The Grail quest, so to speak.

LSD and other psychedelics seemed to have propitiously emerged at a time of massive spiritual crisis in the West. That crisis is still with us on an even grander scale, I believe. Many are teetering between aimless materialism and abject nihilism. That is one of the reasons that I've spent several decades promoting the resurrected ethical path of Asatru as a religion: To fill that void between these two empty alternatives. The conventional status quo religions had failed us and continue to do so. They represent another facet of the problem and thus are in no way a part of the solution. They have, I believe, lost all credibility for anyone with their wits about them.

Psychedelics helped to break up all the old ways of thinking, which was good and healthy. Some claim that it was the American CIA who had promoted acid among the young in America. I don't know the validity of that claim, but if they did, they surely didn't benefit in my case. My views and outlook only deepened as a result. It didn't change my way of thinking; it simply expanded it.
As for Charles Manson, he was the ultimate scapegoat of the middle class who hated the advent of anything new or outside the norm. For them, he epitomized all of their greatest fears and hatred towards what they termed "hippies". Since then, he has become "the unforgiven". I'd say he is a pretty impressive individual, considering the world out of which he emerged and survived.
One must admire his never bending his knee to the system after all they have put him through. America now has many more "Charles Mansons in the making": Institutionalized young people who, by some twist of fate, come from the wrong side of the tracks and glut the reform schools and prisons of this nation. Last I heard, America had something like two and half million prisoners of one type or another. It has become one of America's growth industries. They have even begun privatization in the form of corporations who run the prisons. That number is more then ever before in America's history and more then any other country in the world, past or present. It doesn't say much for the system or for the future prospects of America, does it? I recall the remark made by Manson many decades ago to the effect that one day your children will be coming at you with daggers. I think the events such as Columbine and the wave of copycat massacres at public schools is almost a prophecy come true.

Manson was a part of the other side of psychedelia that the press never featured (what some later would term "Acid Fascism" or "Psychedelic Nazism"). He, along with the Process Church of the Final Judgment, Satanists etc., were all facets of that darker and more sinister side of psychedelia. The whole love/peace side dwindled and died. Most of the idealistic leftists and similar types all turned into obsessive upper middle class materialists by the 1980s.

As for RAF and SPK, I don't think they really had much of an effect on what went on here in America. I have found the chronicles of all of that and the French riots of '68 interesting, but would hardly think them in any way influencing what occurred here in the U.S. The sixties were interesting times in which to live. I think the second half of the sixties defined the direction of the rest of the century and on to the present.

I'd like to ask you about your involvement in Minutemen organization. As I know, this organization was created as an answer to expanding fear of Communist Revolution in the States. Is that right? What did the Minutemen achieve? How many people were involved in that organization?

I am sure I could write a thick book on the subject but probably never will.My involvement in the Minutemen was considerable. I became a member of the newly formed organization at about 14 years old. I first was a member, then became the principle organizer and leader in the Chicago area. Then I became a member of the Executive council of ten as the director of intelligence. By the time I was 24 years old I was the editor of the organization's publication, On Target as well as the national spokesman for the group. My involvement lasted through most of the years of the organization's existence.

The late 1950s and early 1960s was the period in which the cold war had reached its zenith. It was the era of bomb shelters, civil defense drills, and International Communist expansion.

The successful Marxist revolution by Fidel Castro in Cuba served as additional fuel for alarm in this era of distrust and dismay.

Coinciding with this same period of time and events, was the rise of a strident anti-communist movement. For many people the inconsistent policies and liberal personalities in the Federal government came sharply into question. Everywhere, the communists seemed to be rolling up victories around the world. For many Americans, their nation seemed to be engaged in what was termed "a no-win policy". This "no-win" strategy was ascribed to everything from ineptitude to pro-communist sympathies and even collusion with the communists on behalf of American presidents, politicians, and the media.

Much of the fear of internal communist subversion was based upon the hearings and reports of the "House Committee On Un-American Activities " ( HCUA ), and various senate subcommittee hearings on similar subjects of communist subversion and tactics. Ironically enough, another major source of inspiration was J. Edgar Hoover's bestseller Masters Of Deceit. Television had such regular series as I Led Three Lives, chronicling the infiltration and sabotage of communist plots by a fictional F.B.I. undercover agent, Herbert Philbrick.

Amid this general atmosphere, a plethora of ad-hoc organizations began to emerge: "We The People", "The Christian Anti-communist Crusade", and various others. Most generic to the origins of the Minutemen was the John Birch Society, founded by Massachusetts' s candy manufacturer Robert Welch.

The Birch Society went further than most other groups in it's research and analysis concerning alleged communist infiltration of American institutions and government. Welch blatantly labeled Eisenhower a fellow traveler of the communists, as well as other subsequent presidents and officials. The John Birch Society's answer to these alleged problems was to organize chapters of their society in communities across America. They published a monthly magazine American Opinion. Essentially they considered themselves to be an educational organization. American Opinion bookstores began to open up all over the country for the purpose of disseminating there books and periodicals.

The basic demographic for the type of person who joined the Birch Society and other similar anti-communist organizations tended to be those in the upper middle class. Small and sometimes corporate type businessmen seemed to predominate. It's policies tended toward basic American values, defense of the constitution and a republican form of government. They stood against internationalism, one world government; progressive education, communism, socialism, corruption in government, and any tendencies outside the status quo of the preceding decades. They termed their policies "Pro- Blue" as opposed to "Pro-Red". They frowned upon racism and anti-Semitism in general. A number of prominent Birch Society members were expelled for transgressing upon this unwritten taboo.

While all of this anti-communist contagion was sweeping over America, others at the grassroots level, who shared these same basic concerns and outlook began to think along lines other than large public organizations the type of which have been mentioned.

In the late 1950s and very early 60s various magazines devoted to gun and hunting aficionados began to carry articles about small groups of what were called "Minutemen", training for survival in the event of a communist invasion of the U.S. These first, or early Minutemen, were not a part of any large national organization. They seemed to have arisen spontaneously and independent of one another. By way of various sportsmen's magazines and no doubt by way of members of existing anti-communist organizations, this concept of forming a last line of defense began to grow. This was both the advent of the formal Minuteman organization as well as the advent of the larger concept of survivalism and the citizen soldier that has continued up to the present day.

Among those early to be fascinated by these homespun militia concepts of the citizen soldier, was Robert Bolivar DePugh, a young successful biochemist and owner of a veterinary supply business in Missouri. At this time DePugh was a mover and a shaker in the John Birch Society in the Kansas City, Missouri area. Depugh was not convinced that the Birch Society and similar organizations were really on the right track in opposing communism and the loss of constitutional liberties. He felt that the anti-communist movement should take an entirely different approach to the problems. A more vigilant, active and incisive approach. He felt that they must borrow the communist's own methods of conflict in order to oppose and beat them.

DePugh was fond of telling an apocryphal story about the founding of the Minutemen:

In his own version (which may well have been true within the context of his own personal experience) It all evolved one autumn day while he and a group of associates were sitting in a duck hunters blind waiting for their targets. One of the members of the group made the offhand remark that if the communists ever invaded America they (meaning those present in this group) could form a guerrilla band to fight a resistance war.

Unlike most of those sportsmen and hunters who had already formed such groups based on such concepts, DePugh's own talents, wealth, and imagination predisposed him to become a leading personality in this world of paramilitarists. This high profile position was to be a very costly one for him over the following decade and beyond.

The national Minutemen organization first came to prominence as a result of a carefully staged guerrilla warfare training seminar and combat field exercise held in and around the small Illinois town of Shiloh, a short distance from St. Louis, on October 21, 1961. It was to be featured in dozens of newspapers and magazines nationwide.

This was in essence the public debut of the organization. Newspaper photos of an impressive array of weaponry and various combat clad trainees caught the nations attention, and for some, their spirit of romance and adventure. This was to be the first of a string of media coups the organization was to benefit from.

Following this well publicized event, letters poured in to Minutemen headquarters asking for information and how to join. DePugh himself began to get requests and invitations to appear on various radio and television talk shows. This further enhanced the organization's ability to reach out to the general public. DePugh began to write and print various pamphlets and leaflets to facilitate recruitment and inquiries. Unobtrusive classified ads began to appear in the back pages of many major newspapers. From this junction a real national organization began to form.

The next big media coup was to be a result of an article published in the aforementioned official Minutemen publication, On Target. On Target was a loose leaf type newsletter on legal size paper. It's masthead had a rifle's cross-hair scope within the "O" at the beginning of the title. Beneath the masthead was the cryptic slogan: "Words Won't Win -- Action Will". What made On Target, uniquely different from other anti-communist or right-wing publications was that in addition to articles and commentary on various current issues, it also contained names, addresses and phone numbers of it's assumed communist and liberal enemies. Often literal dossiers on such people were featured. Combine the slogan, cross-hair masthead, and such detailed information on perceived enemies, and the potential threat was implied, without ever being actually stated.

The March 13, 1963 issue of On Target began with the following: JOIN THE MINUTEMEN

...We have studied your Communist smirch, Mao, Che, Bhukarin. We have learned our lessons well and have added a few homegrown Yankee tricks of our own. Before you start your next smear campaign, before you murder again, before you railroad another patriot into a mental institution...better think it over.

See the old man at the corner where you buy your paper? He may have a silencer equipped pistol under his coat. That extra fountain pen in the pocket of your insurance salesman that calls on you might be a cyanide-gas gun. What about your milkman?

Arsenic works slow but sure. Your auto mechanic may stay up nights studying booby-traps.

These patriots are not going to let you take their freedom away from them. They have learned the silent knife, the strangler's chord, the target rifle that hits sparrows at 200 yards. Only their leaders restrain them. Traitors beware! Even now the cross-hairs are on the back of your necks..."

On February 27, 1963, the existence of the House Committee on Un-American Activities was...challenged in the house of representatives...Twenty-seven Congressmen voted against it...
...here then are the Judas's who seem willing not only to sell out their country for thirty pieces of silver but to go on record and brag about it."

What followed was a black bordered box with the names of the twenty-seven Congressmen. The title at the top of the box was "In Memorium".

This finely tuned threat might well have gone unnoticed. Later that same year, on November 22, the cross-hairs of an assassin's sight did indeed come to rest on the back of the neck of President John F. Kennedy and he was dead.

Kennedy had previously made a public speech in which he castigated armed vigilante groups. Immediately following the Kennedy assassination, before anything was really known about the Assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, the wire lines of the major news syndicates were already pointing fingers at a right-wing plot, most specifically The Minutemen.

Now the words and sentiments expressed in the March 13, 1963 issue of On Target came back to haunt the organization with a vengeance. In January 1964, U.S. Representative Henry Gonzalez, a Texas Democrat from San Antonio, one of the twenty-seven names which appeared under the "In Memorium " heading in On Target, and Attorney General Stanley Mosk, both called for a Federal investigation of the the Minutemen organization. Gonzalez made this request to the then Attorney general Robert Kennedy, citing the On Target article (now ten-months old) and the Kennedy Assassination. Gonzalez also approached Supreme Court Justice Earl Warren to see if there was any connection between the Minutemen and the Kennedy Assassination.

In California, laws were tightened on firearms controls. Legislation was also created, outlawing private armies and paramilitary groups such as the Minutemen. In the end, all of this seemingly negative publicity made for the addition of an even greater number of new members to the organizations rolls. The Minutemen seemedto prosper every time bad press came there way.

Shortly after this round of publicity Walter Ruether, longtime President of The United Autoworkers Union and his brother Victor, submitted a memorandum to the Justice Department which became known as the Ruether Memorandum. In essence it was a five point program for combating the radical right under the heading of "Action on the Problem ", the second point was concerned with the Minutemen. It stated that: "The administration should take steps to end the Minutemen ". It called upon the administration to call together a conference of the states where the Minutemen existed to see what action could be taken under state laws. It was further suggested that perhaps the Minutemen might fall within the Attorney General's list of subversive organizations.

This and other pressures in a sense led to greater Federal scrutiny of the Minutemen and a more concerted effort on its behalf to monitor the organization's activities and to infiltrate, sabotage, and generally destroy the group. But due to the structure of the organization, this was not so simple a matter. The Minutemen organization, being singled out, and given the importance they were in the Ruether Memorandum, established a sort of status on the right that they had not had previously. It also confirmed the dangers from the Left-establishment that they had been claiming. It also meant that a concerted effort of sorts would be made to destroy the organization.

1964 marked the first comprehensive guerrilla warfare training sessions held for members from around the country. A new emphasis was placed upon combat readiness and security measures.

Though the organizational structure was first that of guerrilla bands comprised of anywhere from 3 to 12 members, now a new structuring began, one which consolidated existing groups as well as involving and organizing scattered individuals. The new structure was that of the classic resistance cell, comprised of three members. Later, dispersed cells were organized bringing isolated members together from great distances at prearranged times and places for various activities or missions. This type of organizational structure is difficult to penetrate by government forces. It also grants greater autonomy of action to individual cells. Less communication and direction is required. Generally cells have pre-assigned specialties and missions.

During this period (1964-65), a strong emphasis was placed upon intelligence gathering of the communist and left-wing movement. This was affected through mnormal research and analysis of publications and public news sources, as well as infiltration and second-story operations. Individuals and teams were trained in the use of electronic surveillance equipment, lock-picking and other methods of surreptitious entry, sexual seduction techniques and all the other methods and practices normally connected with espionage. Oftentimes the grassroots activities of Minutemen intelligence were better than that of the Federal authorities. This disparity was surprising, in so much as the Minutemen did these things on a "shoestring" budget in contrast to the vast resources at the disposal of the Federal law enforcement organizations. It certainly points up the fact that efficient intelligence activities have as much to do with the quality of the people involved, as it does with logistical and financial resources.

Ideologically speaking the organization was and continued throughout its existence to be a conservative, anti-communist, pro constitutional group. Charges by watchdog groups such as the Anti-Defamation league and others, that it was a racist and anti-semitic organization were not true, at least in the sense of such things being official tenets of the organization or it's leaders. There were indeed elements and individuals within the organization who could well have been labeled as such, but DePugh never dealt in race-baiting or anti-Semitism.Overall, the Minutemen drew from the full scope of those on the right.
From "Barry Goldwater" type conservatives, Objectivists and libertarians, anti-communists, constitutionalists, Christian Identity, neo-Fascists, Nazis, gun-owner advocates, etc.. It was, in truth, one of the most populist organizations on the right, drawing from many divergent sectors. In this sense there was often power struggles for dominance within the group. Early on, DePugh had expressed his antipathy towards such groups as the National States Rights Party and the American Nazi Party of George Lincoln Rockwell. He had publicly epitomized both as "tinhorn Hitlers".

Though publicly conservative and anti-communist, there was little doubt to those close to the leadership that the goals of the Minutemen were absolutely revolutionary in nature. Under the cover of its outward, ostensible purposes of fighting communist subversion, was an organization preparing for the overthrow of the existing political establishment. It was toward that end that all its efforts and activities were directed.

It would be difficult to thoroughly cover the entire scope and history of the organization here in an interview. There is a book entitled The Minutemen by Harry Jones, a Kansas City Star writer. It came out also as an updated version in paperback entitled A Private Army. Both are out of print but used copies can still be found. Much of the day to day events of the organization are chronicled in this book.

America has always feared Communistic ideas and USSR. At the same time from very New York came hundreds of so-called Bolsheviks in 1917. American Jewish Bankers has financed Russian revolution, and American Government has invited Trotsky when he was deported from Soviet Union.

Yes, but it was basically the Kaiser in Germany who gave passage on trains to Russia of Lenin and those from New York. He apparently felt it advantageous to help destroy the Czar's ruler ship since Russia was at that time Germany's primary rival. A really shortsighted viewpoint on the Kaiser's behalf I think.

As for Trotsky I think the U.S. at the time of his exile was glad to see a division in the communist world. It was Mexico which gave him residency until the occurrence of his assassination.

As for the threat of Russian Communism it was primarily in the area of internal subversion. The communists were very good at subversion and espionage. The communist party, both above ground as well as underground was a very large movement at one time in the U.S., primarily gaining it's greatest momentum during the great depression. They were very active in supplying arms and training for various revolutionary movements worldwide; in Africa, Cuba and other parts of the world.

As for the actual military threat I do not today think it was that great. It was used as an excuse for stationing U.S. military in Europe on the premise that they were protecting Europe from the Soviets. General Odam, the longtime head of the NATO military forces admitted that to have been the case. He more or less said that the real reason for our troops being garrisoned in Europe was to control what went on in Germany first and foremost and also other European countries. In the event that a government the U.S. did not approve of or did not control should take power anywhere, they would be on hand to prevent or dispose of it. I imagine that is why we still have so many troops garrisoned on European soil, so that the U.S. can control and keep their puppet regimes in power.

And today, when USSR is no longer exists, we see that USSR wasn't your real enemy. Today you have less freedom, less money, more working hours... more American taxes go for military spending... USSR was ruined more than 10 years ago! So, what do you think about all that? Wasn't fear of Communism just a tool for mass manipulation of Americans?

To a large extent that is the case I think. It goes far beyond high taxes. Liberties are continually shrinking. In place of liberty Americans are given license. They want to disarm everyone (despite the 2nd amendment) but you can watch all manner of pornography on the web and television. License is usually given for all negative things while at the same time liberty is being rescinded. Now they are medicating children in grade chools so as to have compliant zombies. They even give cash rewards or incentives to parents who agree to have their children drugged. In my own lifetime I have seen liberties disappearing one after another.

Orwell's 1984 was probably close to the Soviet system in description. Huxley's Brave New World is very much like what is occurring in America today. Quite prophetic in that sense.

It was written that Minutemen has evolved into Militia movement. Could you tell us about that movement? Here in ex-Soviet countries we do not have much real info about such topics because in USSR it wasn't possible to write about those things, and today, when all media in Russia belong to Jews, it's impossible still.

The Militia movement in effect was an outgrowth of the Minutemen. The Minutemen had reached a point where the U.S. intelligence agencies really had us under surveillance all the time. At that point I was national spokesman and I wrote to leaders around the country to form their organizations at the grassroots level, rather then as a national organization. This meant that the intelligence agencies could no longer simply concentrate their efforts on the leadership and headquarters - suddenly they had all these unaffiliated groups springing up autonomously around the country. The wide spread militia movement of today is an outgrowth of that diffusion into many local groups as opposed to a national one.

As for all the Russian press being a controlled media how is it that people like American dissident Bill White and English dissident Troy Southgate and others on the far right have had many articles published in Pravda?
From what I have read of Pravda on the web it seems a lot less censored or controlled then the mainstream media of the U.S.?

5. Right now I reread notorious Turner Diaries. It was published in Russian recently. Funny stuff. And I should admit I like it even if it's a bit too straightforward. What do you think about the book? How much 'white fighters' from MacDonald's book differ from real Minutemen and Militia?

The Turner Diaries were written by William Pierce, the deceased leader of the National Alliance. MacDonald was simply a pen name he used. To me it read like an amateur novel. As a novel I didn't think it very good.
Surprisingly it got widely distributed and had an influence far beyond what I might have expected. As far as it being some blueprint for revolution I think it is very ill informed overall. Pierce was a competant writer on social philosophy and such. He was not a military strategist by any means. In fact his organization the National Alliance always seemed to be in a sort of void as to what its goals really were. It did not seem to have any real strategy of revolution though it often spoke in such terms. He also wrote another book, Hunter which was a bit more well written then the Turner Diaries in my opinion. Of what influence it has had I am not aware.

Robert Matthews, a member of the National Alliance, formed his group, the Order, and they sort of tried to copy the Turner Diaries scenario, which was apparently a mistake on their behalf considering the outcome.

On your site you have made a statement about events in Chicago. Do you know what really pisses me off? There are bands that sing about honor, human dignity and even revolution. DI6 always provoke listeners with Nazi symbols and hidden messages... people listen to your songs, people pretend to be elite and at the same time a dozen of morons from Antifa has managed to cancel the shows, kicked some arty-farty asses, and - in the end - won. It was disgusting to read DI6 fans weeping when they talked about freedom of speech, Art and so on... Freedom comes from power and it looks like most people who prefer provocative music are nothing but outcasts, week and pathetic. Don't you afraid that your songs like 'Waiting For The Fall' go to wrong audience? Don't you think that Americans (unfortunately, it's the same in Europe) became too weak to fight? Or I'm wrong and our picture from across the ocean is false and American spirit still alive?

To begin with all of that pretty much took us all by surprise. We were not ready for what occurred. It was not a dozen antifas that closed the concert down. It was the owner of the venue, who is Jewish, and that fact was played upon by a local anti-hate group in the area. I spoke with him on the phone and he really knew little or nothing about what was happening but he was scared. He was afraid of losing his customers and having problems with his business due to the controversy.

We tried to find another venue that evening. One place was about to do so, then the local police superintendent called him and said that if he let us play that they would revoke his liquor license. So he backed out of it. As for the actual antifas congregated a block away, Douglas, of Death In June, walked over to confront them and they all faded away and acted like he was the invisible man. I passed them at least three times and they wouldn't even look in my direction. No one there was afraid of those punks. It would have been a pleasure to have engaged with them on the street. All the actual strings were being pulled from behind the scene so to speak. Probably the police superintendent was more responsible in denying us our liberties then the antifas. And the oath he swears is to uphold our rights and liberties. But then one must be aware that Mossad invites police chiefs from America for free trips to Israel in whichthey are wined and dined and subverted. So I wasn't too surprised by the police closing us down.

One ironic twist to the ban of our playing was that during the following week over 2,000 people logged in to download the music of Changes on-line on a download site. That was probably 2,000 people who had not previously even heard of us. 2,000 people who would not have even been in attendance at the Chicago performance. Plus, the incident and controversy made it to the major papers in Chicago. So, it seems as though the people who prevented us from playing shot themselves in the foot, so to speak. They headlined an otherwise obscure band and raised our popularity as a result.

As for these antifa organizations I feel very certain they are simply civilian groups controlled by the federal authorities intended to do their dirty work for them with no repercussions. During the sixties and seventies we had COINTELPRO operations which were government agencies infringing on the rights of citizens with the use of agent provocateurs, infiltrators, etc. At one point they faced senate hearings on all the abuses in which they had engaged. And laws were enacted to prevent this from continuing. So now they use those once removed to do their dirty work for them. Mostly leftists who no longer have a center to their lives since the demise of the Soviet Union.

A humorous sidenote was the official communist bookstore in Chicago. It was called the Guild Bookstore. It was jammed packed with books and one would think they were doing a great business there. Then communism fell in Russia. Next thing the owner was begging for $20. contributions from his customers at the counter. Without a subsidy from the communists he couldn't run the store on a profit basis. What a pathetic loser. His business folded not long afterwards.

May be it's a bit stupid question, but it's really interesting for me to know your opinions on 9-11. Do you believe in conspiracy theory or you agree with common version about Bin Laden?

I am in no position to say it was a conspiracy. I have no special knowledge concerning those events of 9-11. That it was a horrible waste of human lives of people who in no way had anything personal to do with what led up to it is tragic to be sure. Terrorism is an ugly form of conflict. All war is. So, also, is unremitting fighter plane attacks on another country. It can be quite indiscriminate in it's own way. Generally it's victims are not, in any real sense a part of the conflict that leads to their demise or harm. The target of the terrorist is generally random and indiscriminate. As for conspiracies, take any major event such as that and in a short time there will be conspiracy theories concerning it, whether true or not.

Conversely, the attack on the Pentagon was far more focused and less indiscriminate, since those in the Pentagon are in fact a part of the conflict. They are the planners and executors of American military policy. They do stand apart from the average citizen.

So why did the 9-11 attack and other attacks occur to begin with? America has since the beginning supported Israeli policy against the Palestinians and the Arab world. No matter how horrendous the acts of the Israeli government against Palestinians may be you'll never hear much of a complaint from the U.S. government. Then they play mediator to summit talks that are never intended to resolve the conflict there. Why should Israel resolve the conflict? They keep the pot boiling, because if it weren't, they would not be able to enhance their position and dominance over the Arab world. If a peace accord were to be achieved, well hey, no need for the U.S. to continue pumping arms, moneys and resources into some third-world backwash. And that is exactly what Israel would rescind into were it to become otherwise. I cannot understand what benefit the people of the U.S. get out of it all. Higher gasoline prices at the pump? A doubling of the costs of construction materials? A continued weakening of the U.S. dollar?

One thing was absolutely certain after 9-11. The Federal government didn't loose a beat in rushing forth all sorts of new laws and legislation on the wave of popular sentiment. The so-called "Patriot Act" is about as much a misnomer as you could have. What does patriotism have to do with throwing away the Bill Of Rights? If there was no conspiracy directly involved in 9-11, there certainly was one in the aftermath. It was a conspiracy to deny Americans their basic liberties as supposedly guaranteed under the U.S. constitution. All you have to do is read it as it stands. It gives the Federal government sweeping powers over our lives and fortunes in a way that is unprecedented in American history. So if it wasn't a conspiracy, it might as well have been for what followed in it's wake.

Why are such sweeping powers of state necessary in America? Are the leaders of America so frightened by their own citizens that they need such dictatorial mandates of power like "The Patriot Act"? It seems like government by paranoia these days.

Or perhaps the current regime plans to create an out and out dictatorship, but first wants to get all their powers in place for when it becomes so apparent that the American people react and they (the Federal government) can be in a ready position to crush any resistance to their plans.

From what I have gathered they have as their advisors a group of Zionists at the University of Chicago. These are the people whom they listen to and upon which they formulate policy as a result, rather then their own intelligence agencies. I think that had a major role in the resignation of George Senate from the CIA. I guess the legitimate intelligence agencies were not reporting the information they wanted and needed to justify attacking Iraq. We were erroneously told that Iraq had all these nuclear weapons. Then, after we invaded Iraq, nothing of the kind was found to be there. So we were lied to; nothing new in that. Not long ago they were saying the same thing about Iran and Syria. Looks like they want a justification for attacking the entire Islamic world. That certainly makes life comfortable for Israel. We can lay waste to all their enemies for them, and do it all with the blood of American boys who have, at the same time they are fighting, lost their civilian constitutional safeguards. Now that's something to fight and die for, isn't it?

Some of the things we have been told by our leaders would be funny if they weren't at first tragic. We are told we are on this crusade to deliver Iraq from a terrible dictator and now they can have democracy (whatever that is) and the women there can go out in public without veils. My, that surely makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it? While they are bringing all these "wonderful freedoms" abroad, the liberties of Americans are being circumscribed. Now that's a great trade off, isn't it? We've lost our liberties in order to liberate people who mean nothing to me and most Americans. What a pack of lies!

On a more personal note I as an individual have been put on the U.S. government security risk list. Everytime I go through a U.S. security checkpoint at the airport, I am taken off on the side and put through an extensive search. This is not a case of being "Number 12" or whatever spotcheck they make on the average person. One ticket taker inadvertantly mentioned to me that I was on the U.S. security list. They red-line those on the list by use of a checkered line at the bottom of the boarding pass. I suppose this is because I speak my mind and excercise my first ammendment rights and that is the price I pay for what is claimed to be my gurantee under the Bill Of Rights. If it is because of my once having been a member of The Minutemen, I can only find that ludicrous considering that was over 35 years ago when I was in my early twenties. I am now sixty and have had no affiliation or membership in any political party or movement. In fact I have no real interest in politics per se'. If I have answered and given my opinions on such things in the interviews I have given it is only because these were the questi ons proffered to me, and they are simply my personal opinons. My primary interests are music, art, poetry and spirituality. I disdain politics as they exist, as well as politicians, which for me is a term that stands right next to hypocrite, liar, manipulator, corruption, deception, greed, and vanity.

One of the first announcements about you latest gig with BLOOD AXIS told that money from the show go among others to some Jewish foundation. Later this line disappeared from all ads. I wonder is this true. Do you know anything about that? Personally, I do not like when bands pretend to be in opposition to modern system and at the same time go for compromises or even more - cooperate with Jewish organizations. For me Jewish means pro-Israel. Any comments?

Here again things get twisted around. No money went to a Jewish foundation. Money was donated to some Tsunami victims fund, and to the American Civil Liberties Union. Now some would construe the ACLU as a leftist or communist group; however, they have taken cases of people on the right when it was a case of constitutional liberties, so, it is hardly a Jewish organization. I think they at one time defended George Lincoln Rockwell of the American Nazi party when he was banned from speaking in Times Square in New York City back in the sixties. The fellow who started all of this rumor mongering is a type typical of a segment on the far right in America who sees "Jew" everywhere. This is a man who prides himself on scrutinizing canned food labels for Kosher markings, etc.. I guess that's about all he does besides starting pernicious rumors.

The show went very well in Manhattan and they did not close down the second venue we played at. They did close down the Delancy venue where we were originally supposed to perform. Only one antifa attended as far as I know and wrote a horribly funny and banal review of the show for a local leftist newspaper. The audience was wonderful. I saw so many old friends and colleagues it was like a family reunion. The performances were also very good.

For me, Jewish does not necessarily mean pro-Israel. Zionist does. I am aware of Jews who do not support Zionism. I am also aware of gentiles who do. Bill Clinton is a perfect example.

To be anti-American was pretty popular in Russia and ex-Soviet States. Today it's popular all around Islamic countries and even in Europe. I notice that a wave of anti-Americanism is getting bigger and bigger. What is your opinion about this latest trend? Do Americans feel that they are surrounded by - let's call it - not-friendly people? Do you see as an insider any sign of changes in American attitude towards urrounding countries?

I can well imagine how bitter much of the world feels towards America. It pretty much dictates to everyone the world over. Its imperialism is certainly not welcome anywhere. Imperialism never is welcome by those who are it's victims. All I can say is that I am not the one running things here. If I were, such military actions and adventures would not continue. My focus would be America itself, which is in a sorry mess in more ways then I could possibly list here. The recent anarchy that ensued in the wake of the Hurricane hitting New Orleans underlines that fact. This is a very fragmented country politically, racially and economically. Have a hurricane or something of a like kind occur and you have lawless forces coming out shooting and killing the very people who have come to rescue them. This is unprecedented. I can only imagine that it will get worse with time. There is a very deep rooted spiritual problem here in America. It is underlined by the sheer consumption of drugs and the burgeoning psychiatric profession. The prisons are crammed to the gills and the mental health wards are doing a brisk business. Must be something wrong here with this picture.

I finish this part of questions with a general one. What do you consider your main achievement so far? And what is your greatest regret?

Surviving all these years would be a primary achievement. Outside of that, only time will tell what, if anything, which I have done has great value or enduring effects.

I don't generally think of such things of the past. My mind is primarily preoccupied with various current projects or projects yet to be accomplished. Without discernible goals and plans for the future, one is condemned to live in the past, or worst of all in the present, which is the mode in which animals like cows or donkeys live.

Of recent, my primary activities have been writing poetry and song lyrics. I write poetry most every day in some form. My other continuing study and practice is in the realm of geometry. I have a big project in the planning to take my geometrical practices to another level. I continue to do graphic art consistently. I always have had a list of at least a hundred ideas for every one I have found the time to actually do. This year, for the first time, I had whittled the list down to just 39 ideas not yet completed.

I am planning on releasing a series of 17 chapbooks of poetry. Both mine and those of several other authors.

And Changes has a recording date this summer in which we hope to complete a new collection of songs to be titled "LAMENT". We may have several other releases this year as well. HauRuck has plans of releasing a 33 LP of LEGENDS. Hauruck has recently released a 7 inch record which includes "Twilight Of the West", "Icarus", and "Waiting for the Fall" in fully orchestrated versions. It's entitled simply TWILIGHT. White Label here in the U.S. plans to release a collection of songs on LP, followed later by a CD entitled A RIPPLE IN TIME. These are songs we recorded in late summer of 2004 in Chicago. We were all pleased with the results. There are other music projects in the works as well. We will have five songs on the Terra Fria compilation done for our Portugal concert. It will be available for the tour beginning November 12.

This European tour, entitled "Men Among the Ruins", will take us to St. Petersburg as well as Moscow among other locations. We look very much forward to visiting the land of the Rus.

We hope everyone reading this interview can be on hand for our performances. We'd love to see and meet you all in person.